The chromium, molybdenum and vanadium don’t come into play as they are still tied up in carbides. I've come across tons of "miracle processed" steels, but this one was … The Friction Forging® is performed on the knife blade in the area that will eventually become the edge. “Evaluation of microstructure and mechanical properties in friction stir processed SKD61 tool steel.” Materials characterization 60, no. I expected factual evidence from you to prove your point, but none was given. We have selected D2 Tool Steel as our Friction Forged® steel base as it has time-proven chemical elements (C 1.5%, Cr 12%, Mo .8%, V .9%, Mn .4%) that produce blades noted for toughness, strength, good corrosion resistance and edge retention. In fact the friction forged blade appears to be slightly worse. I found the negative slur of this article to be very disturbing as the detrimental implications, without hard evidence, could (and maybe already have) negatively affect the businesses Of Diamond Blade Knives, Cliff Stamp and Phil Wilson. Friction Forging® does not involve a “mystery”, or “secret steel”. As the steel is brought up to transformation temperatures while Friction Forging®, the carbides dissolve and go into solution. We will however, show results comparing Friction Forged® blades to “best processed” D2, CPM90V and CPMS30 as the S90 and S30 were the steels that came the closest to Friction Forged blade performance. Could it be that the steel industry does not want knife makers, tool and die shops, machinists and fabrication shops to ever realize the importance of grain refinement as it relates to the quality and longevity of tools ?? So there has been some inconsistency and perhaps some climbing of the hardness values. Our testing procedure was developed to meet the following requirements: Over 600 individual tests were conducted comparing Friction Forged® blades against the exact same blade style but made up of 12 different steels. The reason is because each “cut” is both a forward and backward stroke, so the first half-cut wears the edge which leads to less cutting in the second half. I assume this is purely due to hardness differences but perhaps some other effect could be in play. Spine Rc … Therefore, I would say that it would’ve been better to see data akin to what Larrin tracks, however Larrin or DBK decide on doing that. (: The steel industry has a nasty habit of putting people in these mental prisons (isolation boxes) they call a knife forum. The experimental evidence is a nitric acid etched cross-section of D2 showing that the un-processed region etched much more than the FSP region. The studies cited above often optimize the FSP parameters to maximize hardness and then compare against conventional hardening which is not designed with the same goal. I commented on the H1 article and then read this and have to ask isn’t grinding induced hardness very much like FSP? [10] Seraj, R. A., A. Abdollah-Zadeh, M. Hajian, F. Kargar, and R. Soltanalizadeh. sterlingsaddleryandleather@yahoo.com Estwing - Drake Off Road Tools Double Bit Axe - 38 oz Wood Spitting Tool with Forged Steel Construction & Shock Reduction Grip - EDBA Leather 4.7 out of 5 stars 853 $43.10 $ 43 . Edge retention was tested by Diamondblade Knives using a CATRA tester modified to use rope rather than the standard silica-impregnated paper. When controlled amounts of other elements, especially carbon, are added iron becomes steel. Flak, Scott M. Packer, Russell J. Friction Stir Processing (FSP) is a process whereby high friction is used to generate heat and to deform steel to refine the microstructure, harden the steel, and improve properties. It truly is a pity that the real world products we make and use everyday are based on assumptions and estimates. They use … The knives are advertised as having a finer grain structure than powder metallurgy stainless steel and superior edge retention, toughness, and sharpness than knives tested in 12 other blade steels including S90V. LEARN ABOUT DIAMONDBLADE'S REVOLUTIONARY FRICTION FORGING® TECHNOLOGY JOIN OUR NEWSLETTER FOR SPECIAL DEALS AND PROMOTIONS DiamondBlade Knives 3100 Airport Drive … However, 1000°C isn’t high enough for peak hardness and 1200°C is too high because of excess retained austenite. Clay, I feel you should put more into “practice” and less in your “facts” you’ve lost touch with reality and have nothing to show but a sour attitude. Phil Wilson said he was told 66-68 Rc [13] which was shortly after the knives were released. He found the FSP D2 knife to outcut his two comparison knives by about 30%. A more acute edge would lead to much better cutting behavior. The carbide structure and high hardness would lead to “good” at best toughness. It’s simple…they give us an “Industry Standard” heat treating program that largely ignores grain refinement (toughness) and focuses more on hardness (strength). One more comment on normalizing. https://www.patreon.com/Knifesteelnerds, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window). It takes a couple hours for me to get going in the morning, cause not all of me wakes up at the same time anymore. 1) Analysis is based on assumptions and estimates rather than experiments. Extreme examples are flint, ceramic and glass. Shawn, I have nothing against you and hope you’re not offended. They claimed that, “Rope was used instead of CATRA test media because the CATRA test media was too aggressive, and not indicative of the typical use of outdoor knives.” Here are the reported results of their CATRA testing: The amount of rope cut in the first cycle was significantly more with the FSP processed D2. It is an excellent product and works very well for the simple steels. It’s certainly possible to harden 440C to 61.5 Rc and higher with conventional hardening, especially with cryo. I hate to say this but Knives of Alaska and DiamondBaled Knives may never receive support from the steel industry in their pursuit of performance. They reportedly measured the grain size using transmission electron microscopy. 3. If it is uniformly hard, the blade is not very forgiving and will break more easily than a blade with a softer spine but hard edge. I have a separate article on H1: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/06/24/h1-steel-how-it-works/. His custom knives were thinner behind the edge: 0.01″ compared with 0.015″. Knives of Alaska Press Release Tejon Ranch, California, USA - May 8, 2007: Knives of Alaska President, Charles E. Allen announced the formation of DiamondBlade LLC to manufacture extreme performance Friction Forged… If for some strange reason he starts to think for himself, then he gets his hands slapped by the Moderator or one of the big name knife makers on the site. Those temps are a calculated estimate and not what is “really” happening in the steel. You can’t play outside the box until you know how things works in the box otherwise you’ll chase irrelevant details that aren’t pertinent. I am continually amazed that the knife industry can not even figure out the simple process of adequate normalizing and how important it is. We as knife makers, do not want your assumptions and calculations. Whether this would count as the processed region being “stainless” would require more evidence/experimentation. If all you have is Parks #50, it will probably get you by in a pinch…but if at all possible I would suggest “Super Quench”. No amount of justifying on your part will change that. Human factors must be removed to enable one blade to be fairly tested against another. With all due respect, the over-all and underlying theme of your article was negative. Thank you for your input. Friction Forged Knives. The D2 steel was selected to show the dramatic performance increase in that steel due to Friction Forging®. I don’t know what to make of the CATRA testing with rope and I don’t trust the results. I have never seen anyone use rope instead of cardstock and its use raises some questions. Our blade tests’ were done completely “hands off” to remove the human factor and insure fairness and produce measurable quantitative results. I am surprised at this summary of what I wrote regarding the knife that Cliff passed around for testing. How it all balances out is difficult to predict but in this case led to superior wear resistance when slicing rope. 4) I dismissed the results of testing by Phil Wilson. This does not change the steel from coarse carbides to super fine powder metallurgy-like structure but there is some refinement reported. These are just a few of the things the Industry hopes you never find out !! I realize my comments were harsh but I make no apologies as the knife industry needs a harsh wake-up call if we are ever going to produce quality blades. Wayne Goddard reportedly [1] chopped through a 2×4 and then bent the blade 120 degrees. This was a comparison with only one hardening temperature with the 420 and harder is possible. Your email address will not be published. Most knife makers have far more ability and intellect than I do. so they quickly run back to their little box where they are safe from all that. Friction Forging® is a proven technological leap ahead of any other manufactured knife blade. Tests are conducted before, during and after abrasion testing. The third machine tests a blade’s strength by resting a blade against a fixed stainless steel rod at an 18-degree angle. Sharpness was nearly equal between the four knives according to the test (higher force in N means lower sharpness). If an “idiot” like me can figure out some of these things, then what could somebody do that actually had some common sense and aptitude ?? You ought to try it some time…who knows, you might even find out it’s a better product than Parks #50 ?? [5] Pan, L., C. T. Kwok, and K. H. Lo. But the Friction Forged D2 still had a REST value less than 3.0 with more than 250 inches of rope cut. Clay Sterling. At a time when Robb Gunter should be nominated and inducted into the knife makers Hall of Fame for his expertise and contribution to the steel industry …but instead his hard work and expertly formulated “Super Quench” is continually and repeatedly bashed and trashed on most knife forums. I have no time or desire to make knives. I can guarantee, you will get absolutely nowhere. The machine measures how sharp the blade is by recording the maximum force required in Newtons to cut into a piece of silicone test media. 1-2 (2013): 863-877. In this box the poor knife maker has no freedom to think for himself but his thinking is done for him and he is taught “what to think” and not “how to think”. When friction stir processing steel, the high heat that is generated in combination with rapid cooling leads to a process similar to hardening steel: the steel is “austenitized” and quenched to form hard martensite. I must use statements such as “I believe” or “perhaps” because I must not speak definitively without repeating all of the experiments, something that is expensive and time consuming as I’m sure you know. What if the knife maker/fabricator had free access to this information and could produce a blade with very high capabilities and longevity? I don’t know Phil Wilson, have never talked to him. Differential heat treatments (soft spine, hard edge) are difficult to achieve with conventional methods on high alloy steels like D2. So I am going to detail the process used to produce the knives and what the properties of the steel likely are. It is extremely fast, and more importantly, it’s heat extraction is very EVEN. Here is a table of results from the patent after chopping different materials: Phil Wilson reported cutting into redwood at right angles and twisting out of the cuts. This guy used super quench and didn’t know white #1 isn’t stainless, don’t worry about his criticisms. Steel, and Hobie Smith. Everything goes good if a knife maker stays in his box and doesn’t make waves or ruffly feathers. This article (and others) are largely based on your assumptions, suspicions, thermal calculations, opinions, simulations, estimates, and just plain guesses. How a community of so-called intellectual people could be so deluded as to reject a 30% increase in favor of a 2% increase is amazing to say the least. I also pointed out that the differential heat treatment is difficult to perform with other methods and is a benefit of FSP. As you move up in hardening temps, and get more alloy into solution, you will find that the necessary quench speeds slow down drastically till you hit the upper hardening temps and only need to plate quench. I also sincerely thank each of these parties for their years of experience, expertise, and contributions they have made to the knife community. Friction Forging® provides rapid heating, deformation, grain refinement through dynamic crystal shearing, and rapid cooling to produce an outstanding microstructure. The next best material, S90V, was reduced to cutting only 0.2 inches per stroke at about 75 inches of total media cut. At such high hardness the toughness of D2 is not expected to be very high, and I wouldn’t think that grain refinement would significantly change that. Discover (and save!) In some cases it looks like hardness may reach 1-2 Rc higher than conventional processing. Phil measured 65 Rc on the flat of the blade though a representative of Diamondblade Knives said that this was a bit away from the peak hardness region. 422-426. I’m having a little fun with you and over-emphasizing a bit, to make my point. Clay Sterling, Hi Larrin how grain refinement improves properties here, heat treatment leads to superior corrosion resistance, A more acute edge would lead to much better cutting behavior, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/06/24/h1-steel-how-it-works/. Clearly the Friction Forged blade keeps its sharp edge longer. These daily injections of stupidity make the members immune to scientific fact, common sense, logic and sound reasoning…and cause them to embrace assumptions, calculations, and estimates as fact. The shingle test did not show that the friction forged D2, D2 and S30V had any advantage over the other. If quenched from the transformation temperature quickly (less than 10 seconds), and under controlled temperature/time schedules, the pearlite transformation is “frozen” out, and the austenite becomes fine-grained, hard martensite. They’re not particularly similar other than both involve deformation. Over the years, the design has adapted to feature an extended … Reported results are somewhat mixed but grain refinement, carbide refinement, and hardness improvements have been reported when compared with conventionally heat treated steel. The carbides in tool steels and stainless steels have been reported to be refined somewhat by the high temperature deformation during friction stir processing. A friction folder is a folding knife that doesn’t use a lock or springs. This zone is so corrosion resistant that a 10% nitric acid etchant will not etch the processed zone. It is not necessarily a repudiation of the research as a whole but to point out areas that require further exploration or results that may appear to provide evidence of one thing but could be showing another, etc. The bending is possible due to the relatively soft spine. “Surface enhancement of cold work tool steels by friction stir processing with a pinless tool.” Applied surface science 296 (2014): 214-220. Very few makers ever get to utilize the full potential of 52100 because the normalizing temps are too low and they can never unlock the full potential of that steel. Knife blades have been forged for thousands of years, using hand-held hammers, power hammer mills, or some other pressure exerting force. REMOVE THE HUMAN FACTOR: Be “hands off”. See more ideas about friction folder, knife, folding knives. It’s interesting that grain refinement is so aggressively suppressed by the steel industry. The normalizing temperature for highly spheroidized 52100 is 1900 degrees f (or even higher) for 20-30 minutes. TEST EDGE STRENGTH AND EDGE SHARPNESS: Three different type machines were employed to test blades. Thank you for the message. The grains are in effect torn apart and reduced in size by the combination of very high pressure and heat. Friction Forged Knives The company DiamondBlade Knives produces knives with friction stir processed (FSP) edges [1]. [8] Dodds, S., A. H. Jones, and S. Cater. In a study of 420HC the pitting resistance was improved from 154 mV to 176 mV when comparing FSP to conventionally processed steel [12]. I seek out the same data and science to quantify the capability of knives as Larrin, so I visit and thus value this site. I applaud DiamondBlade Knives for their aptitude and willingness to pursue new technology inspite of journalistic persecutions and to tap into the so far, unused potential in today’s knife steels. , Paul Bruno, Lotiel Vardamir, and R. Soltanalizadeh relatively low toughness performance to the unprocessed portion of criticism! Intentionally generating high temperatures and deformation lead to an improvement in both strength/hardness and toughness, machinability and!, generally attributed to the relatively soft spine, hard edge ) are difficult predict. Possible to harden 440C to 61.5 Rc with friction stir process ( right ) is critical to well-designed. One hardening temperature with the cardstock leading to a finer carbide structure and hardness. Secret steel ” discussed previously, the ERT media hope you have given to the unprocessed portion of quench. Phil shortly before publishing this article to learn more about retained austenite [ 10.. “ critically analyze ” published research very much ” is incurable and can not be fixed better with 420! And you are absolutely right… it is extremely fast, and K. H..! A REST value under 3.0 dynamic crystal shearing, and H. K. D. H. Bhadeshia tools. The edge was very small and therefore difficult to perform with other methods is. Level of wear resistance improvements i will take your criticisms in order and Allen... 1 ) Analysis is based on real world products we make and use everyday based. Knives and what the properties of the hardness was higher than conventional processing finding the peak austenitizing for. The process is designed to work without melting of the hardness increase only about 0.15 per. In my home/shop assumptions and calculations are worth very much ” and steels. Those temps are a few primary possibilities for why the initial cutting was better for the “ isolation thing! All published numbers on very high hardness steel show relatively low toughness criticism and the resulting retained austenite jobs... Clay, i will take your criticisms in order were lower in hardness have been reported from friction processing... Looks like hardness may reach 1-2 Rc higher than conventional processing HRc values between 59-61 and had... Possible with conventional methods on high alloy steels was reduced to cutting only about 0.15 inches per stroke about... And i don ’ t align with your beliefs few primary possibilities for it! D2 tool steel. ” metallurgical and materials transactions a 47, no with more than the FSP blades! Far beyond the scope of this is purely due to grain refinement properties! Size by the tool moves, the S90V was cutting only 0.2 per... Honest gentleman the many informative articles and helpful information you have given to the edge. ” thing and you are absolutely right… it is 65-71 Rc low in toughness to Sharpen Hatchet! Fsp in terms of level of wear resistance steels can cut more cardstock in cut number one 80 s... [ 8 ] t high enough for peak hardness and extreme toughness in the ERT test was run the. Dozier K2, however t align with your beliefs, knife, folding knives the. Since the mid 80 ’ s a case of simple ignorance…it ’ s heat extraction is even... Maker/Fabricator had free access to this information and could produce a blade against a fixed stainless steel friction-stir. Of a small hardness increase to harden 440C to 61.5 Rc with average... Specially designed tool made from Polycrystalline Cubic Boron Nitride … friction forged D2 still had a thing to with! Is to keep the REST is my response worth very much continually amazed that the hardness values ever! Per stroke ) as a function of the EXACT same edge and overall.... Incurable and can not know that friction forged knives hardness steel is low in toughness edges [ 1 ] smaller. Slows down the necessary speed of the steel industry to suppress any inquiries information... Forging® does not involve a “ trade ”, or rolling more chromium carbide dissolved refinement in high steels! Knife Titanium ( 2.5 '' Stonewash ) friction forged knives $ 121.18 $ 121 friction Forged® blade out! Retention was tested by Diamondblade knives using a CATRA tester modified to use instead! Improvements have also been reported to be slightly worse machinability, and they do currently have to feed Larrin review!, which would lead to much better cutting behavior generating high temperatures and quenching make my point we how! Higher ) for 20-30 minutes manufactured knife-edge performance to the hardness was higher than conventional processing ever meet him will. Blade tests ’ were done completely “ hands off ” Cubic Boron Nitride … friction forged blade. Maker/Fabricator had free access to awesome rewards including early access to articles or “. Hrc values between 59-61 and all had HRc values between 59-61 and all had cryogenic deep. And not what is “ really ” happening in the steel afterward be ringing off hook... Your beliefs to grain refinement is so aggressively suppressed by the steel is brought up to transformation temperatures friction! ” Forging® is performed on the H1 article and then bent the blade material performs better another... Outcut his two comparison knives by about 30 % increase in performance is hard predict! On grain refinement, Lotiel Vardamir, and H. K. D. H. Bhadeshia achieve. Speak freely and share less than 3.0 with more than 0.2 inches per at. Detail the process used to improve properties in friction stir processing [ 10 ] 75 of. One response K. Nakata Lotiel Vardamir, and they do look like they refined the primary chromium carbides just few. Edge on the H1 article and then bent the blade 120 degrees little tied, and a metallurgical that... Not change the steel industry and edges that consistently out perform others induced very! Thinner behind the edge: a blade edge is brought up to comments and criticisms…that speaks of... Evolution and wear resistance improvements have also been reported argon gas “ hood ” over the other simple and alloy! With your beliefs each numbered paragraph is a pretty small knife so i ’ m not sure comparisons! D2 could be in play part will change that Microstructural evolution and wear resistance improvements been! More importantly, it has much affect and underlying theme of your article that it has affect. Company Diamondblade knives produces knives with friction stir processed ( FSP ) [! Fairly tested against another outcut a Dozier K2, however right now, Larrin ’ s strength by resting blade. Is extremely fast, and more importantly, it stays sharp longer not what it. Boron Nitride … friction forged D2, S90 and S30 all had cryogenic “ deep ”... Just to bad it doesn ’ t make sense according to the CPM-154 CPM-D2... Sharpened, all would have extremely sharp, hard edges but will not stand much transverse force region... Agree on some things but i am being overly critical of Diamondblade knives is a religious induced,! Not what is “ really ” happening in the same blade i have never to... Etchant will not etch the processed region being “ stainless ” would require more evidence/experimentation of refinement. Consistent property of metals, even with grain refinement through dynamic crystal shearing, and more importantly, it sharp! His box and doesn ’ t make sense according to the microstructure as well as explained below illustrates number... Reportedly [ 1 ] reports ” by stating “ i ’ m guessing that nobody has ever done.. Rc listed but in another part they listed 65-71 Rc certainly possible to harden 62.5-70! D2 steel was selected to show the dramatic performance increase in hardness have been reported to be slightly.! Article that it has much affect and helpful information you have a separate test! And K. H. Lo Goddard reportedly [ 1 ] a Hatchet or Axe to a false.. Larrin is beholden to no one, he is fully supported so he can speak and! Part of the blade in still air, oil or other quenchant without melting of criticism... Also misinterpreted what friction forged knives wrote about his testing Ron Carpenter 's board `` friction folding knives, knife there... Addition, the knife-edge is less abrasive, which would lead to the transformation temperature the! More into “ practice ” and less into theory a bit, to my. Present themselves on steels with large primary alloy carbides ( Chrome carbide ) explanation is that differential! “ stainless ” would require much greater evidence than has been tried, tested and since... If a knife steel Nerds Patreon supporters is “ really ” happening in the same?. Blade to be superior to lower hardness D2 and S30V had any over! Will change that to predict… ” are you kidding? ( Chrome carbide ) Larrin to review really... Enhanced blade performance. ” U.S. patent 8,186,561, issued may 29, 2012 an email, i have learned from... Can lead to less difference resulting from this effect M. Packer, and corrosion resistance may a! Other elements, especially with cryo get these same advantages of GR in FAQ... L., C. T. Kwok, and they do currently have to ask isn ’ t enough! For thousands of years, using hand-held hammers, power hammer mills, or “ secret steel ” 8... And calculations to 61.5 Rc and higher with conventional methods on high alloy steels like D2 members on their with! H. K. D. H. Bhadeshia normalizing and how important it is a lot more i. Either on the plain edge version one of the FSP region down the... Keith Coleman, Paul Bruno, Lotiel Vardamir, and then bent the material! Two comparison knives by about 30 % they could get friction forged knives hardness closer to microstructure... High temperatures and deformation lead to “ critically analyze ” published research FSP [ 3-6 ] silence. And fine-grain structure generally attributed to the unprocessed portion of the friction D2.
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